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1976 Marshall Super Lead MkII & Back in Black – Update

16 Oct 1976 Marshall Super Lead MkII & Back in Black – Update

Update of Saturday the 16th.

Brought the treble side of the Rhythm part down a tad. Replayed both solos, re-positioning the microphone, still only one microphone (I lack the second damn XLR jack, would you believe it? and I was too hectic trying the solos again).

Changed the equalizer settings for the solos slightly, see both new equalization settings.

Also, “bounced” Angus’ parts without the master track (i.e., you now can listen to me alone, rhythm and solos, no song).

Back in Black with the new settings, solos:

In order to get the amount of drive I needed (and that is heard on the record) I kept the loudness way down by using an attenuator, settings here were… all at 10! LOL. Except for presence that was still 0. All the rest, for the solos here, 10.

Parts ONLY (no original song):

New equalization settings:

[singlepic id=402 w=1024 h=768 float=]

[singlepic id=401 w=1024 h=768 float=]

End of Update

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So, the 100 watts head SL came in this morning.

I hooked it up immediately (photos later on).

Since this morning I’ve been working on BiB (again!) to try and get closer, and here it is for you.

I played the SL only (the NMV) today, to try it out. I don’t think there is such a difference from the MV Lead, there is, but not hugely so. I don’t know which one I’d favor, probably, both.

(by the way, I read on the Marshall forum that the differences between the two – technically – are as follows:

A few more additional differences are: the 2203 has an additional stage of treble boost, and an additional input gain stage. The voltage gain half of V2 has its cathode resistor set for lower gain than in a 1959 as well.
The pre phase inverter master volume in the 2203 is important as it will set the mix of overdrive between the preamp and phase inverter. In the 1959, the preamp is always wide open and the first stage to distort is the phase inverter, where you have to have the master cranked fairly high in a 2203 for the PI to distort)

from: Marshall Forum

Here’s the settings I used for the rhythm Angus part: presence 0, bass 8, middle 4, treble 6, volume I 8 volume II 0.

Now, on the guitar, volume was at 7 (pretty important).

For the lead, I “found out” that probably they set the head a little different:

presence 0, bass 2, middle 10 (!) treble 2, volume I 10, volume II 0

Surprisingly, I had to roll the guitar volume off to 8-9 for the solo, so no, it wasn’t full 10. I think Angus, on Back in Black at least (the whole album), has done this many times. You can hear that the guitar has a sort of texture to it which is typically not the full throttle guitar volume on 10, i.e. the typical harshness this makes. It’s creamy here and that type of cream, in my experience, only comes from rolling the volume down a bit.

Here’s both the equalization curves that I used. I think the lead curve (and/or microphone position) needs improvement, while I think I almost nailed the rhythm “tone” (whew).

Lead:

[singlepic id=398 w=1024 h=768 float=]

Rhythm

[singlepic id=399 w=1024 h=768 float=]

What REALLY makes a big difference, is the correct microphone positioning. I am going to have to change the microphone support as it’s circular and a pain to put close (as it probably should be) to the cone. I put it right on the cone for the rhythm, not off axis (as I thought) but right ON axis. Same for the lead, though that needs further experimenting.

Here’s the track (I played directly on the original Back in Black song, to try and listen to the actual equalization path and reproduce it):

Note: I also posted this stuff on the Marshall forum to have multiple ears listening to it and see can come out of this:

http://www.marshallforum.com/cellar/19389-struggling-ac-dcs-back-black.html#post221810

avatar
Fil "SoloDallas" Olivieri
sd@solodallas.com

We Are Rock 'N Roll People.

97 Comments
  • avatar
    SGACE
    Posted at 01:42h, 16 October

    Great effort my friend, it is close very close.. Your playing is excellent.. the tone at some points is convincing and at some other points i feel that needs more equing or something else. For a start I think that we all should be happy with the result. Maybe the 1971 SG should be used also in the solos.. again BRAVO

  • avatar
    Ryley
    Posted at 00:48h, 16 October

    Fil! that sounds pretty well exact!! i think uve finally got ur BiB tone uve been looking for

  • avatar
    Hyce777
    Posted at 00:36h, 16 October

    Fil, I’d say that this is so close that someone with an untrained ear couldn’t tell the difference. Almost there, keep it up man.

    Mark

  • avatar
    nitroangus23
    Posted at 00:16h, 16 October

    Closer and Closer with each attempt,pretty soon you’ll be int he Mutt Lange range Fil,
    “haha”

    -Cheers

    • avatar
      SoloDallas
      Posted at 00:19h, 16 October

      Hahaha… thanks mate 🙂

  • avatar
    TheBrowling
    Posted at 00:06h, 16 October

    Fil, to me, the rhythm part is absolutely amazing, if I didn’t know it’s a cover of yours I would think it’s the actual album, but as it’s been said, the solo tone isn’t as perfect as the rhythm part, it might be because we can hear Angus’s playing and we can’t listen just yours, but anyway it’s great.

    • avatar
      SoloDallas
      Posted at 00:12h, 16 October

      Thanks brother. Oh no. No no. The fact that we can hear Angus below wouldn’t change things: if the tone was the same, you’d hear it distinctively and you would recognize it. It’s not the same. Needs more work. And it’s harder, too, to nail. Not much the tone as a characteristic of amp, guitar and equalization, but the performance. Angus was a BEAST here. He was amazing. Thank you 🙂

  • avatar
    sixstringslover
    Posted at 23:01h, 15 October

    This is the record,right ? !!!!

    Well done, Fil. Other than tone wise, great performance

  • avatar
    headwhop26
    Posted at 22:42h, 15 October

    Wow, I dont think I can say anything in here that hasnt already been said, but wow, its amazingly close. As they said, its a tad sharp and bright, but pretty amazing.

  • avatar
    Tyler
    Posted at 22:20h, 15 October

    Sounds very good, to me the rhythm is a little too bright and the solo isn’t bright enough but your getting there man. I know it must be hard really hard work, I give you a hell of alot of credit for the effort you are putting into this! Have you received the 50 watter yet?

    • avatar
      SoloDallas
      Posted at 22:22h, 15 October

      Thanks Tyler 🙂 Nope, no 50 watters yet. I wonder why.

      • avatar
        LedSabbath
        Posted at 04:43h, 16 October

        Thanks for bringing up 50 watters. If you are wondering what the hell I am talking about here is a hint: Angus brought in I believe 1 or 2 100 and 50 watt amps. Now that said Angus now uses 50 WATTERS for solos. And the more i think about it the more it makes sense to use 50 watters.

        P.S. Sorry Fil I forgot to mention that the volume pots in my SG a 300k which marks the tone darker then a 500k pot so I have to crank the treble. Try this EQ instead: Pres: 0 Bass: 7 Middle: 5 Treble: 6 Vol I: 8-10 and Vol II: 0

  • avatar
    LedSabbath
    Posted at 21:43h, 15 October

    Rhythm sounds right, BUT the solo doesn’t. The solo sounds more like Presence: 0 Bass: 5-7 Middle: 4-6 Treble: 6-8
    Volume I: 8-10 and Volume II: 0.

    • avatar
      SoloDallas
      Posted at 21:51h, 15 October

      Yep, I don’t like the solo tone either. I will give your settings a shot tomorrow for sure (edit: though I know I used those already, read below). My impression was that treble should be kicked out completely. I tried and tried with treble set there as you say, but it would come out trebly; the the equalization would not work at all to that glassy 2k tone there is on record. I think Tony Platt didn’t lie at all: he captured what the sound was like right away, and did minor adjustments. He didn’t shape the tone in a dramatic way. So I will have to try and get the closest with settings and microphone placement (probably a bit off axis? instead of completely on axis). Two microphones will make a difference, too. I only used one today, but I got the second one in the morning, it’s still packed. I can hear the phase of the two microphones clearly on the record. It makes a slight chorus sound. Have to listen closely. I really think mids are blasted out, and treble is minimized; it’s really the only way I could shape it decently this time. I god I tried for 3 hours of attempts at changing settings and playing with the equalizer. Plus trying to grasp the right take on guitar. Really hard. But I knew it. This is Back in Black, this ain’t no britney spears song.

    • avatar
      SoloDallas
      Posted at 22:21h, 15 October

      Mate, I was re-thinking about your suggestion: I don’t think it works that way. If you hear on the record, the solo has “scorching” sounds when he picks the strings. You can definitely hear an overdrive increase there. A LOT. The only way I could get it on a 1959 (this one) is by doing that way, blasting the mids. Also, blasting the mids will still give you treble, but lower treble, so that you don’t get the harsh trebles (which in fact completely lack in the recording). Probably recording it several times helps. This is why I wanted to have the gear as close as possible to what was used back then: so I don’t have to route out things that could be in there. I mean, it’s either the amp settings, the microphone or the equalization. Can’t be anything else.

  • avatar
    whiskeyontherocks
    Posted at 21:41h, 15 October

    It’s scary how close this is! Great job Fil!

  • avatar
    JaiminhoPagina
    Posted at 21:40h, 15 October

    Getting closer and closer! 🙂
    These old JMPs are amazing!!

    • avatar
      banane
      Posted at 21:49h, 15 October

      Yes, absolutely. If my will sound as half as good as this one, I’ll be a lucky man.

      And btw, Jaiminho, most time, no, almost anytime I’m learning with your videos and your tabs. Many thanks for all this!

      • avatar
        SoloDallas
        Posted at 21:55h, 15 October

        Yes it will Franz. It will. I’m convinced this is the inner character of these circuits, they all sound the same, with the same character which is this character you hear and you heard the past days. I will stretch to the point of saying that I think I like slightly better the MVs. Really great tone. This amp is also excellent – heck I shot my closest attempt at Back in Black I was ever able to pull in my life with it – but I think the MVs are even more aggressive in tone. Which I like. More “nasal”. That nose sound you got profused into back in black. You’ll be happy 🙂

        • avatar
          banane
          Posted at 22:20h, 15 October

          That would be really great. Well, just 2 or 3 more days…I mean, I’m dreaming of this since i’m 12 or so, when I got the Back in Black album from my grandad.
          And Angus said he remembers the playing of his solos by the feelings he had when plaing it first. Maybe you just felt the same thing like he back then.
          I can totally follow the connection with the band you felt.

      • avatar
        JaiminhoPagina
        Posted at 22:09h, 15 October

        Ah. My pleasure 😀
        I’m glad my videos can be useful 🙂
        Next one (AC/DC) will be Girls got Rhythm.
        I’m just finishing the tabs.
        Keep an eye on my Dailymotion account this weekend 😉

        • avatar
          banane
          Posted at 22:28h, 15 October

          Hehe, thank you, man!
          Your videos are a lot more than just useful. For me, watching you playing at slow speed and reading the tabs is just the ultimate learning method.
          I will try it out on my JMP then.
          The neighbors will like it 🙂

  • avatar
    Aaron
    Posted at 21:02h, 15 October

    This deserves a second comment.. I can’t believe you have come so close. Mark this day in your calendar it is a very special one indeed.

    • avatar
      SoloDallas
      Posted at 21:19h, 15 October

      Thank you so much. I think this is just the beginning though. I am going to try and make it better, possibly, trying another equalizer. This is the one – 7 bands – that comes in with Pro Tools I think. I need a professional one now. I have been working hard, very hard. I am exhausted today. I have really been on it all day long, not eating etc. Once I “felt” I was close, a sort of “fever” got me burning, and I didn’t feel any need of eating, drinking, nothing. It’s always been like this for me when I am feel I am close to something. The solo has been a pain. Angus was really, really, really great. Only anger – the willingness to make it – can make you play a solo like that. I tried maybe 30 times, and I had to switch guitars. I started with the ’71, but the solo I got it with the ’67, as the ’71 had a note that was a bit flat (the string sounded flat) and was really pissing me. The solo wouldn’t take off. This is also important. We’ve always said it’s in the hands, but as I tried saying carefully some time ago, an instrument or an amplifier that “doesn’t have it” will make you struggle and not get there. This is why ultimately everyone is amassing gear. Today I felt a kind of weird connection with the band back then. At times, it was really like playing WITH them. I had to make physical moves to get some riffs right. It is really physical. It’s a fight.

      • avatar
        banane
        Posted at 21:33h, 15 October

        Hehe, I can follow this sense. Now have a cold beer and enjoy what you did today 🙂

        • avatar
          SoloDallas
          Posted at 21:37h, 15 October

          Danke brother 🙂

      • avatar
        HagusYoung
        Posted at 22:05h, 15 October

        truly some instruments, no matter what the cost or what they look like, they dont have it (and are killer for different things).
        i wanted a maestro sg vos so bad, and when i got it, i took off the maestro, it simply didnt have the ballsy bass kick of a tailpiece, SGs more same as Les Pauls are so different from eachother q-.-p (kinda cool, but also verry annoying). Id also recoment a flater sounding SG for BiB, i think the BiB SG must have been a more creamy, sweet kind of SG. Not too squawky, more growling, hard to describe its just a feeling.
        Have nice evening everyone !

  • avatar
    Aaron
    Posted at 20:55h, 15 October

    All i have to say is wow…. i can’t even tell the difference.. Remember way back when everyone thought you were faking? i think you might have that problem again hahaha well done my friend.

  • avatar
    Angusrocks
    Posted at 20:31h, 15 October

    Fil, you got it now (-:
    And think about that every SG sounds a little different, so you never reach 100%, otherwise you had to visit the Netherlands and steal Angus`SG away ((-: A friend of mine bought a Les Paul long time ago. At first he tested 20 Les Pauls and he told me, that every Les Paul sounded a little different, even made from the same wood !! At the moment i can`t imagine a more original Angus`sound from you, but you will know it better, because it`s you who is standing in front of your amp/cabinet. That`s different, i listen to you on the computer, but you listen to it in reality.

  • avatar
    banane
    Posted at 20:14h, 15 October

    Man, thats a great one. Almost 99,9 percent of the original here. Congrats, FIl!

  • avatar
    Hardrockerdave94
    Posted at 20:02h, 15 October

    Hey Solo, can you tell me where you place your mics, atm I’ve only got one vocal mic to use, but it doesn’t sound too bad, but I’ll be getting a decent mic soon so where should I place the two of them? Do I place one further away to get the room’s sound or anything like that? I’m just putting some demos together and I want them to sound good.

    • avatar
      SoloDallas
      Posted at 22:06h, 15 October

      Good question: the microphone. I used one only here, but I will be using two on my next attempt (I finally got the second on this morning). This microphone on this recording was right ON axis, super close to the centre of the cone of the speaker. I mean, really as close as I could make it. Since this microphone has the typical Neumann old style circular holder which is anti-shock, it was tough to put it completely flat on the cloth (the ring around it prevents you from doing so). So basically, the top of the microphone was touching the grill cloth, the bottom was away maybe two centimeters. All on axis.

  • avatar
    rpatzelt
    Posted at 20:02h, 15 October

    Oh my God! I say Oh my God, Fil! I can’t tell the difference between original and this take (though, I know that you still find some… 🙂 ). If Angus will forgot somehow his settings he can pay a visit here to refresh his memory. Did I say Oh my God?!

  • avatar
    KyleSG
    Posted at 19:56h, 15 October

    Well Fil it will never be possible to 100% do it as you would need to be in the same room they were in but I think 99% is pretty darn good and this sounds great!!!

  • avatar
    Dave4433
    Posted at 19:41h, 15 October

    dammit, now I can’t tell do I hear Angus or is it You Fil ?

    Tone is perfect, I only detect a little (just a tad bit) too much presence, do I ?

    Otherwise, it’s perfect.( I actually doubt You’ll get any closer than You are now ) 🙂

    • avatar
      Dave4433
      Posted at 19:50h, 15 October

      Try a little bit more high’s on the EQ next time.

      • avatar
        SoloDallas
        Posted at 21:13h, 15 October

        Yes, I think so, too. Maybe a tad, super tad little less. I had originally, I re-kicked in some higher (you can see it in the rhythm EQ curve, the higher part on the right) because it sounded too dark, but it was maybe my fried ears.

    • avatar
      HagusYoung
      Posted at 19:53h, 15 October

      i also do, i think its the plick noise, typical for angus’ playing and PU positioning, but its not really there on the Record. Tone is super sweet Fil, id still go and cut the treble in a bit.

      • avatar
        banane
        Posted at 20:12h, 15 October

        Thats funny, I have this plick noise too when playing and it really annoys me. So Angus has this too?

        • avatar
          HagusYoung
          Posted at 21:57h, 15 October

          thats a big angus signature thing this sqetschy and almost ice picky sound when you touch a string, its kind of natural on a marshall on the bright channel. i know a lot of people that simply dont get it and they try hard on their epiphones 😀

    • avatar
      Mick
      Posted at 20:25h, 15 October

      no he actually is using no presence at all ha.Dont know what you are hearing 😀

    • avatar
      JaiminhoPagina
      Posted at 21:31h, 15 October

      Crap…. I accidentally rated your comment with 2 stars O.o
      Sorry 🙁

      • avatar
        SoloDallas
        Posted at 21:33h, 15 October

        Hahahha. Don’t worry. I don’t think any of use cares about the ratings too much here. How are you brother? I look forward to our next collaborations

        • avatar
          JaiminhoPagina
          Posted at 22:00h, 15 October

          I’m fine 🙂
          Thanks! What about you?
          Yeah. Me too. 😀
          I’ll see if I can record this weekend 🙂

  • avatar
    depuis1899
    Posted at 19:30h, 15 October

    so Fil, the sound is , i think, perfect …
    really, for me you got the BiB sound
    that’s just THE sound…
    man i love it..^^

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